Event Committee
Founding Member
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Gubment
May 14, 2018 16:51:17 GMT -5
Post by Deadeye Jack on May 14, 2018 16:51:17 GMT -5
One thing I worry about the intended government corruption system is that if bribery is the way then this possible devolves into the oldest citizens have an outsized domination of the "government". That might lead people to feel the system tilts unfairly. This also leaves a lot of the management of the region unsaid. Roavin's proposal puts forth an interesting metagame, but this founding document doesn't guarantee the average citizen much of an equal say in how things are run. It's almost like we'd have to create an entirely separate government that would actually run the region. I dont think in the long run that admin wants to necessarily be involved in micromanaging all decisions on and off site.
Something I think would be less "taxing" on the citizen would be to make the sheriff position more of a cultural position meant to encourage activity. The sheriff could create petty laws like "you must make 10 posts on the forum this week in order to take part in the event" otherwise you must pay X bribe. ANd the sheriff can be lenient to new members or people with no breaks for inactivity or they can not be.
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Event Committee
Posts: 40
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Gubment
May 14, 2018 18:40:55 GMT -5
Post by manson on May 14, 2018 18:40:55 GMT -5
I completely agree with Jack.
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Founder of Essential Consulting Inc.
Western Destiny Railroad Representative
Posts: 154
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Gubment
May 17, 2018 2:22:14 GMT -5
Post by roavin on May 17, 2018 2:22:14 GMT -5
One thing I worry about the intended government corruption system is that if bribery is the way then this possible devolves into the oldest citizens have an outsized domination of the "government". That might lead people to feel the system tilts unfairly. That's true. I don't really have a particular idea on how to combat that. Except, of course, that older people engaging in bribes are more likely to be caught by the Marshalls and will get sanctioned more. Or something. This also leaves a lot of the management of the region unsaid. Roavin's proposal puts forth an interesting metagame, but this founding document doesn't guarantee the average citizen much of an equal say in how things are run. It's almost like we'd have to create an entirely separate government that would actually run the region. I dont think in the long run that admin wants to necessarily be involved in micromanaging all decisions on and off site. The idea (and maybe this isn't desired by BT et al) was that the Marshal Service would always hold the ultimate power at the end of the day but in a hands-off way; so they wouldn't be involved in micromanaging but rather anything to be managed would be emergent from the chaos. A potential avenue to approaching this would be to split things. There'd be a "state law decree", written and editable only by the Marshal Service, which outlines very roughly the rough rules of the region, and then this document would be based on it and amended to suggest a bit more of the management explicitly (but then, if within the bounds of "state law", amendable by citizens). That kinda is a separate government, but not really. Something I think would be less "taxing" on the citizen would be to make the sheriff position more of a cultural position meant to encourage activity. The sheriff could create petty laws like "you must make 10 posts on the forum this week in order to take part in the event" otherwise you must pay X bribe. ANd the sheriff can be lenient to new members or people with no breaks for inactivity or they can not be. In my idea, the mayor's role would be roughly that. The mayor could say "you must make 10 posts to take part", but it's up to the sheriff to enforce so you could bribe the sheriff to get in anyway.
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Event Committee
Posts: 40
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Gubment
May 17, 2018 12:31:35 GMT -5
Post by manson on May 17, 2018 12:31:35 GMT -5
I'm still with Jack on this.
Could we actually put it to a vote to determine if we want full corruption, a little, or none at all?
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Founder of Essential Consulting Inc.
Western Destiny Railroad Representative
Posts: 154
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Gubment
May 17, 2018 12:34:39 GMT -5
Post by roavin on May 17, 2018 12:34:39 GMT -5
Not opposed to voting on the various facets of this, though we should probably ask BT to weigh in first to proclaim how much regional management he wants in the hands of the founder/admins and how much he wants in the hands of the people.
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Welcome to Fort Triumph
Forces of Triumph
Founding Member
Posts: 2,110
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Gubment
May 21, 2018 23:00:26 GMT -5
Post by Benevolent Thomas on May 21, 2018 23:00:26 GMT -5
I'd like some sort of IC legislature that all citizens can participate in. They could handle all of the in-character aspects of the region like:
Foreign Affairs (embassies, treaties, World Assembly) In-Character Laws (taxes, wages, holidays, banning tank tops, ext)
I would also like to have a group that is focused on structural aspects of the region, that is largely decided on by the founder. This would be a hopefully meritocratic system that saw dedicated individuals enter a cabinet of regional officers and admin.
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Founder of Essential Consulting Inc.
Western Destiny Railroad Representative
Posts: 154
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Gubment
May 22, 2018 0:49:49 GMT -5
Post by roavin on May 22, 2018 0:49:49 GMT -5
That's not too different from the setup I proposed earlier in the thread then.
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Forces of Mordor
Mordor
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Forces of Mordor
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Gubment
May 22, 2018 11:37:20 GMT -5
Post by Sauron on May 22, 2018 11:37:20 GMT -5
I like that idea.
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Western Destiny Railroad Representative
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Gubment
May 22, 2018 12:54:36 GMT -5
Post by Shizensky on May 22, 2018 12:54:36 GMT -5
How involved will the founder be in the region? Will they be a figurehead who mostly exists to keep the region from going founderless? Will they lead the executive branch?
I like the idea of the elected sheriff or mayor running the executive, and appoint their deputies/structural government officers (town council?) as needed. They wouldn't have a rigid guideline for officer positions, but would be able to appoint as many or as few deputies as they want. This could support Roavin's plans, where a sheriff can appoint 10 of his buddies and give them meaningless titles, or it could serve a practical purpose of an executive branch that flows with the needs of the region.
If the elected official is the one appointing regional officers, I think there will be a better connection between the average citizen and government than if they were all appointed positions created by a founder.
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Event Committee
Posts: 40
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Gubment
May 22, 2018 15:13:30 GMT -5
Post by manson on May 22, 2018 15:13:30 GMT -5
I love Shiz's ideas.
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Founder of Essential Consulting Inc.
Western Destiny Railroad Representative
Posts: 154
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Gubment
May 23, 2018 5:23:57 GMT -5
Post by roavin on May 23, 2018 5:23:57 GMT -5
So, my current thoughts: "The Marshal" ICly is a character representing a federal officer. He is an honorable man, incorruptible, and mostly laissez-faire. OOCly, he is played jointly by BT and whoever BT appoints as the leaders he mentioned in his post. It's a hands off position for the most part. Using the NPC plugin, we can make IC posts by the Marshall appear as such, though the signature will say which player originally posted it (for transparency). "State law" is the founder-granted freedom to form a government and the founder-granted authority for the Marshal to ensure things don't go awry to the detriment of the region. To put it simply: The region will be run democratically for all intents and purposes, except that BT and trusted officers have the ultimate veto right in extreme cases if something is obviously harmful to the region as a whole. Basically, this is not too dissimilar from the de facto setup you'll find in most democratic UCRs except that this is more honest and done in a way that plays into the regional theme. The WA Delegate should be a separate position from the mayor or sheriff (though the Delegate can be mayor or sheriff, of course). There are several reasons for this. First, Fort Triumph has and will have a solid chunk of players that are gameplayers elsewhere, but come here to relax and have fun far away from the political drivel of wherever else they are. This means their WA won't be available all the time or at all, and you'd preclude those players from holding one of those positions. Second, BT has expressed a desire for Fort Triumph to become a significant power in the World Assembly. Having a stable Delegate, rather than one subject to the insane whims of the regional government, helps with that. You won't have a few percent loss upon every transition. Third, the kind of player that likes being an active Delegate, looking at and reviewing proposals, and endorsement swapping to keep their count high, isn't necessarily the kind of player that would make a good mayor or sheriff. Similarly, a good mayor or sheriff isn't necessarily somebody that would be a good Delegate! I still think the "RULES AND ORDERS" are a good starting point, if people like the sorta crazy approach to governance. Things that belong in state law would have to be removed; I'd also like to add the provision for mayor/sheriff to appoint people/deputies/positions whatnot as Shiz suggested. Regarding regional officers: That could be done in the form of a request to the Marshal to update the state registry entry on Fort Triumph. That'd be thematic, would allow the IC government to have some jurisdiction over ROs, but keeps a check on sanity. Hmm. Enough for now.
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Welcome to Fort Triumph
Forces of Triumph
Founding Member
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Gubment
May 23, 2018 16:31:56 GMT -5
Post by Benevolent Thomas on May 23, 2018 16:31:56 GMT -5
Need to fill in parts about the mayor and the Marshals. Also need to add a part about the WA delegate and how they are chosen. I was trying to do that now, but my surroundings are too distracting at the moment.
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Event Committee
Founding Member
Posts: 2,327
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Gubment
May 23, 2018 19:20:51 GMT -5
Post by Deadeye Jack on May 23, 2018 19:20:51 GMT -5
Ok let's separate the idea of corruption out because I think that's what is throwing me off when trying to discuss this. If we throw that to the side then a simple document like Roavin's could be good.
So what we're left with is the Town Hall/Assembly that can pass any laws it wants. This could be something as standard as a procedure on accepting embassies or a law that limits someone buying too much property on the Town Map.
We have an executive that is given broad powers to do the daily running of the region and to be the foreign face to the world. The Mayor would be the elected head of the government and they could appoint some such cabinet as big or small as they see fit to help with this task.
Then there is the Founder/Marshal that just makes sure the region is not subverted against its original ideas and steps in when absolutely necessary as well as deal with adminning.
The basic idea would be at the beginning that the elected Mayor could basically oversee and do the mechanical functions that a typical region has like recruiting/foreign affairs/culture planning, etc, unless and until the Town creates a law stating otherwise. As we learn what we like and don't like about how the executive is carrying out these functions we can legislate it otherwise.
The only other thing to discuss if we like this framework is how elections work (terms, challenge system, triggered by no confidence, etc) and maybe some other thing I'm missing
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Western Destiny Railroad Representative
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Gubment
May 24, 2018 9:40:47 GMT -5
Post by Shizensky on May 24, 2018 9:40:47 GMT -5
I really like making the executive a "mechanical" branch, and allowing the citizens and elected government to handle legislation. The only political authority we originally give the founder appears to be the right to veto, and I think that could work pretty well.
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Don't Talk Me Or My Son Ever Again.
Lawman
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Gubment
May 24, 2018 17:27:56 GMT -5
Post by TheDeadWest on May 24, 2018 17:27:56 GMT -5
So after reading it over I think this is a great document for the foundation of our region with just a few items we may need to examine closer, and with a few suggestions. Starting off with the suggestions, is I think we need to give any un-enumerated rights to the citizens for the time being until such times we need to enumerate them away from them (read:if they cause issues that out way the freedom of them having it I can't think of any which is why I'm all for giving them this). The other suggestion is that having the citizenry take up legislation is a fantastic tool of democracy the only issue being is in ensuring such legislation gets put in to a proper legislative/Bill/Parliamentary format, which I think should be the speakers job to ensure a proper format is followed if not adapting the suggested proposals himself? So that way we don't get laws like "No Talky Bad about Tomantha" but instead laws like " Harassment of any citizen, non citizen, or forum member is prohibited, especially when target towards the citizen known as Tomantha. Actions following harassment include on first instance a written reprimand, ect. ect." As for Mayoral limits I'd like to see maybe 4 months with no more than 2 consecutive terms possible? So 8 months which is ages in NS time really would be the consecutive limits of service, the potential issue there is essentially what Putin did Medvedev and have a place holder but the only thing we can do is hope it doesn't happen. Now things we need to examine closer that I don't really have a suggestion at this time include whether or not the Marshal can become Mayor because you want to talk about corruption imagine being able to decide who can be a citizen and who can't if you're the one they're going to be voting for, (That's not to say I don't trust our Marshal I do whole heatedly a cursory search which prove that he's an exemplary member of the NS community) but I've seem this become an issue in other regions.The only possible work around I've noted is exclusionary and it's to put limitation on citizenry qualifications like WA status(something despite having my WA here I'm torn on slightly). We also need to examine what counts as challenge to the Mayor? Is the same as a vote of no confidence or is it less or more in this matter? because it does take the whole township but only a negligible amount to get a vote of no confidence started as a proposal to vote only takes 2 citizens.(also 2 citizen maybe need to be increased as the population increases) Also do we have a judicial branch? I see that one isn't currently included in this but there is a board for it? Is this something we should design> And lastly and this may just be my liberal sensibilities but we should clarify free speech as not including Hate speech or harassment of other individual.
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